00:00:07 Steven
Welcome to the Kolbecast episode 227. Thank you for joining us.
00:00:11 Steven
Today, Bonnie and I are joined by mother of five and occupational therapist Caitlin. We spend some time talking about the eight... yes, 8 senses and the needs and sensitivities that we and our children experience. We also discuss emotional regulation for children and parents as well. I found many of Caitlin's insights to be particularly helpful for managing a homeschooling household. I think you will as well. We hope that you enjoy the show.
00:00:41 Bonnie
Hi there, I'm Bonnie... Kolbe homeschooling mom of four lads and lasses, liturgical musician, popcorn and podcast fanatic.
00:00:49 Steven
And this is Steven... homeschooling father of five and chief homeschooling officer for Kolbe Academy.
00:01:01 Bonnie
Hi, Steven, how's your week been?
00:01:03 Steven
Week has gone very well. Lots of lots of good things this week.
00:01:06 Bonnie
Good, good. Glad to hear that. It's been a pretty week here weather wise. I've been enjoying my morning walks. So it's the sweet spot. We’ll see how long we can keep it around. Yep...
00:01:16 Steven
Yes.
00:01:18 Bonnie
Our topic today is occupational therapy, which I have a sort of narrow point of reference for that a little... It's broadened out here recently thanks to the guest we're going to get to visit with today. My points of reference are just some a little bit that I did as a piano major trying to recover from some overuse injuries. I spent some time doing that, but then also I hear a lot about occupational therapy in the context of a range of services that folks receive which I know that our guest is going to tell us much more about. I'm happy to welcome Caitlin to the Kolbecast. Hi, Caitlin, thanks for coming.
00:01:48 Caitlin
Hi, thank you for having me.
00:01:50 Bonnie
Oh, I'm very excited that this day has finally come. I've been hoping to visit with you since I heard you on the This Whole Life podcast talking to Kenna Millea about this topic, so would you tell us about yourself and your background and your areas of interest as well as expertise?
00:02:06 Caitlin
Absolutely. So my name is Caitlin. I am a mother to five kids. My husband and I and our kids live in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. I stay at home. Well, three of my kids are in school, and the local Catholic school. I stay home with my two younger ones. But I am trained as an occupational therapist and still get to use that skill set from time to time.
00:02:28 Caitlin
I will start by defining occupational therapy for you, because as you said, everyone's idea of occupational therapy is either small, large or nonexistent, and I think a lot often times when people hear occupational therapy, they think it's about occupation, is in the workforce, maybe and getting people back to the workforce, which is part of it, like you said, you needed it to be able to play the piano some more. But really, in general, we look at occupation as... is how do you occupy your time, so anywhere from a job... for kids it's playing and learning. It's also as simple as getting dressed, toileting, showering. So we look at all those different activities of daily living and then some and problem solve with people. How can you get back to your occupation or how can you more independently and successfully achieve that occupation? So I have a master's degree in occupational therapy from Saint Catherine University here in the Twin Cities, and I kind of found that path a winding way to get to it, but ultimately I love the idea of being able to help people do what they want to do a very hands-on approach. I love that occupational therapists can work with people from ages zero to 100. Plus, occupational therapists work in hospital settings. They work in school settings, outpatient clinics, rehab facilities, even just general larger business places. They can act as consulting members. And so it was a great way for me to use my interests in a really large variety of ways. So I personally worked in a transitional care unit with older adults as they came out of surgeries, maybe strokes, heart attacks, anything that kind of set them back a little bit to help them figure out getting back home or maybe figuring out a different step to move into where my passion lies though, is working with kids. So I worked in an outpatient pediatric setting. I've worked with kids of all diagnosis anywhere from Down syndrome to cerebral palsy, autism, ADHD, anxiety, but then also kids who maybe don't come with the diagnosis and maybe just are those kids that need a little extra help figuring out how to play with peers, need a little extra help figuring out toilet training a little extra help figuring out dressing, handwriting, in general. Just attending to whatever their task at hand is.
00:05:03 Bonnie
All right, so we can clearly see how this is going to be very applicable to our day-to-day doings. For most of us participating in these conversations, we are doing school at home in some form day in, day out. So I'm hoping to glean some ideas and wisdom from you to apply to this this day-to-day reality for us and I and I'm referring back to that podcast episode through which I was introduced to you. That really kind of opened my eyes to the the broader applications of occupational therapy just in the day-to-day moms, kids, dads, families, the unit... so how do you see occupational therapy being applicable to us in this kind of setting?
00:05:43 Caitlin
Yeah, that's a great question. And I think as I so I was working in the field until I had my third child and then I stepped back to stay at home full time with my kids and I was feeling this kind of lost inside of me to not be doing OT in the clinic and I realized very quickly what you're saying is that OT is applicable every single day in the house with our families, with ourselves, and I've found great joy in being able to share that with, you know, family, friends, and even with educators in the area on how to apply a specific area of occupational therapy which I spoke about on that podcast, is regulation. And so regulation is your ability to kind of take in what's happening around you, whether that the environment changing or how individuals are interacting with you. And then to process it in the brain and respond with the appropriate behavior. So if you're dysregulated, you're showing behaviors of maybe you know kids are screaming or melting down, or just blank stare. They're not, you know, completely regulated state to continue learning and interacting. And if you are regulated then that's the response that you would deem appropriate in that situation of maybe taking a deep breath and not screaming and running the opposite direction so you know you take a lot of OT and look at what is the body mechanics of a child, what is going on in the brain, how are you perceiving things from the sensory area? And then how can we combine all of that and then respond appropriately in a situation. So the podcast that you've referenced, I like to talk about how we can use different sensory integration in order to help regulate the body to be in the optimal state for learning or sitting at the kitchen table or getting ready for bed. Whatever you're doing in your household.
00:07:46 Bonnie
Sure. OK. And speaking to that sensory dimension, how do you kind of like to introduce that topic to folks who are new, I mean, or they might hear kind of bandied about like sensory this or that. I'm curious how ...how you like to set it out before folks who are... Who want to make the best use of it?
00:08:03 Caitlin
Right. So sensory integration is when we are taking in through our sensory system. So we think I think traditionally people think of the five senses. So that's the sight, smell, taste, hearing and touch. And you're using those senses to understand your environment and then responding appropriately. I really like talking about how there's more than 5 senses. There, in addition to that, occupational therapists also look at typically three more senses, which are proprioception.... And and that is touch but not in the sense of like this is scratchy, this is soft, more so touch in the sense of this is how my body is interacting with something and how hard I'm touching something. So you can think of proprioception and you think of the kid who gives bear hugs and does not realize like that they are squeezing to the tightest amount possible versus the kid who was barely brushed on arm and just like ohh my gosh, that was the biggest shove ever. So they're proprioception. How they perceive touch in that sense is varying proprioception is also kind of body awareness in general. So can you close your eyes and touch your nose, or does your hand hit somewhere else on your face? So it's a big deal when it comes to dressing yourself. Do you have a kid who you know, consistently misses the armhole of a sweatshirt or are they fully aware? and also the kid who I have one of them in my house comes running through the kitchen and will knock like 4 things off of the counter because they're just not quite as aware in space. So that's part of sensory. Another sense is vestibular. Vestibular sense is kind of what makes you dizzy. It tells you if the room is spinning. It tells you if you're upside down or right side up. Some kids can take in a ton of vestibular sense. Sensory input and they're the ones you see swinging on swings and going upside down on the monkey bars and spinning around and around. And just nothing seems to affect them. And then you also have people who, you know, can't go in the car ride because of motion sickness or they thought of even just sitting on a swing at the playground makes them sick. So they're different levels of sensory input, affects them. And then the last one I mentioned was interoception. And that is the sense of what's going on inside your body. So the sense of hunger, the sense... fatigue, the sense of hot or cold, and we all have varying levels of this. So there's some people who know exactly I'm hot, I'm tired and I need to eat and they can get those needs met and they can voice them. And then there's the people who you know are really hungry and they get kind of angry. And they just don't realize maybe that eating a granola bar would calm their body and help them regulate. So when we're talking about regulation, we want to look at these senses of the five traditional ones. The three more are listed and how we can use all of these systems to help our body center in and ground itself and be regulated and be ready to learn at home.
00:11:22 Bonnie
I see all of that as so... almost like parallel in importance to what we're working on school-wise. Like we want to learn about ourselves and and help our kids learn about themselves, because all of that is just as important, if not more so, to for them in their formation as whole people to be able to do whatever they need to do to do that well and ... and I I see it as increasing in importance all the time, yeah.
00:11:46 Caitlin
Well, and in addition to not just helping our kids learn how to regulate themselves, but to recognize when we ourselves are not regulated right because we can't help others if we ourselves are not helping ourselves and there's a lot of in parenting and occupational therapy and educating, there's a lot of co-regulation. So we might be able to recognize this is not the appropriate behavior in this situation. But the part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex that helps with regulation, really isn't fully developed until 25, and even then we probably could work on it some more. And so when you've got kids at home trying to learn, you've got to help learn that regulation state in the brain too, and show them how to take a deep breath. How to maybe dim the lights or do whatever you need to be calm and then move forward.
00:12:36 Bonnie
So too here again is another area where we as parents are learning more about ourselves by going about it this way. We didn't realize that going in, we thought we were doing one thing, and ohh here's what we're actually meant to be working on...
Caitlin
Absolutely.
00:12:52 Bonnie
So I know you work with kids and families in brick-and-mortar schools. What sorts of lessons and guidance can we school at home families draw from from that work?
00:13:02 Caitlin
Yeah. I mean, I think especially from the topic of regulation and sensory, just being in a brick-and-mortar school versus at home, it's all the same, right? We still need to be in an optimal state of learning, whatever that may be. And I think that the families at Kolbe Academy have this great benefit and advantage over some brick-and-mortar schools to the point of.... when you're in a school with 20 other kids, if it's loud, it's loud and there's not much you can do about that, and you can kind of change the environment a lot more to specific kids needs at home or wherever they may be learning. And so looking at these different sensory approaches to achieve optimal learning is really what I'm teaching teachers and what I'd love to share with parents as well. So when you have a kid who's bouncing out of his or her seat and can't sit still and is just wiggling, what is that body looking for? Usually those kids who are wiggling, I'd give him an instant dose of proprioception so that heavy work of lifting something heavy, being able to push against the wall, and so I have tips for teachers to do that. But at home you could do so many more things, right, because you're not dealing with 20 other kids at the same time, maybe a few more, but not a full classroom more. So looking at these different sensory behaviors and what do they signify? And sometimes OT noticed that it's not necessarily sensory related. Sometimes it's core strength is not there, but kind of OT are like trained problem solvers, so parents are too right? You can't be a parent without problem solving. How can we problem solve what sensory behaviors we're seeing and what sensory input we need to achieve that regulated state then?
00:14:53 Steven
So it seems like from the sensory standpoint I'm I'm trying to put all these together. It's it's kind of like a tension, whether it's too much or... Or too little that you're seeing. So like the bouncing or the desire to spin or swing or whatever? Or all of the sounds in the room that I'll get kind of hearing everything at once. And so trying to lessen the the stress and the exhaustion that comes from either side than kind of that.
00:15:19 Caitlin
Absolutely. And I think what drew me to OT versus being an educator and like the brick-and-mortar school you're talking about is the ability to hone in on one kid and see what their need is because not all kids have the same sensory needs. So when I talk about sensory and regulation, I like to share that we all have different types of cups or buckets that allow sensory input, right? So some kids.... People in general have a huge bucket and they can put audio input in. They can put visual input in, they can put spinning in. And they they still are just functioning at their regular level or they're even seeking out more of it. They want more and more and more to kind of be at that optimal level of learning. And some people have, like, a teeny tiny Dixie Cup, and they can only fit in, like, three extra noises and one bright light, and then they're overflowing. And they just kind of can't handle it anymore. And then the behaviors you see in response to needing more is sometimes the person who's just jumping out of their seats. But sometimes it's the person who just all of a sudden is despondent and Just shuts down completely and not responding and so a lot of time. OT's are looking at what is the response I'm seeing and how can we adjust it and it's taking a lot of different tools and throwing different tools at kids to say OK that was too much. Let's lessen it or they don't have enough. Let's increase what they're receiving. And it's a lot of individualized....
00:16:54 Steven
I do a different sort of thing that we've talked about on the podcast before. I'm I I'm a counselor for the Highlands Ability Battery, sort of Johnson and O'Connor sort of thing. And one of the things that this is reminding me of that they have a a type of learning called rhythm memory that we test for, which is like getting the beats down. But you... it's also learning by moving in large muscle groups and one of the things we we start to recognize as counselors is, it almost seems like they're really active. People are in the the spectrum. So some people think better when they're moving and doing all of these things and some people can move around and to stop to silence the mind, you know. And so they tend to be active on either extreme. It's the middle that doesn't really have the same demand to either move for one. So this is kind of fitting some of these things and that are, in my mind already with, like, OK, this is. But it's broader here than this.
00:17:48 Caitlin
Well, I think that's a great point and we're saying the same thing, right? You're just saying it from one perspective. And I'm putting words on it from the OT field. But yeah, everyone learns a different way or needs movement or doesn't need movement to figure out what they're doing.
00:17:54 Steven
But yeah, yeah.
00:18:05 Bonnie
I I would think that it would be a a gradual kind of ... A deeper conversation that unfolds over time with each person as they come, you know, first the parents are recognizing this with the OT's help and kind of taking the lead on it, but they can, I bet, gradually and involve the child as that child gets older too. They come to realize that about themselves, and then they are able to kind of do what they need to do. Does that is that one of the goals?
00:18:34 Caitlin
Absolutely I. So that that co-regulation point of you're seeing it with the kids not quite seeing it. So I do that a lot in my house. I have one kid who comes up consistently crabby in the morning and it's because he hasn't eaten yet. And so using the words of, you seem kind of tired or you seem kind of cranky. Let's try eating and kind of helping him learn that connection or I have another kid who just too much audio input will really shut him down. He just does not respond anymore. And so ohh, it seems kind of loud in here. If we turn the music down. Do you think that would help you focus on the task at hand? You kind of using that language with your kids of ohh I see you acting or feeling this way. Maybe trying this would help and it's a lot of figuring it out for yourself too. Like I'm getting really agitated as I'm cooking dinner. I think if I cleared this counter off of some of the visual stimulation I would be able to focus a little bit better.
00:19:35 Bonnie
I'm so glad you said that. I would love to hear you say more about ways that we as parents can draw from these principles and help, you know, grow in them ourselves.
00:19:43 Caitlin
Mm-hmm yeah, I think it's really taking your own inventory of when do you feel most regulated and when do you feel most calm or most grounded or whatever terminology you want to use and what have you, what what has happened throughout the day to help you feel that way? Did you get a workout and did you go outside and walk? ‘Cause that's really great proprioceptive input and you can give yourself grounding and combing sensory input prior to an activity that you know is going to kind of get you agitated to kind of help you get to baseline 1st instead of entering into that activity already feeling rubbed up and ungrounded. Or maybe you're someone who you know too much audio just really throws you out like you turn the music down when you're trying to figure out where you are ... when you're driving, kind of eliminating an audio input helps you focus better and so kind of taking your own personal inventory so that when you're sitting at home with your kids helping them learn, you can kind of set up that environment for yourself it there's, you know, different types of flavors and foods that can help ground you or alert you maybe you're just exhausted from a long week and you need something more alerting as opposed to coming to help you get through whatever the next lesson or activity is with your kids.
00:21:03 Bonnie
OK.
00:21:05 Steven
Like drawing it back to those cups that you were talking about because you know, I think all of that experience where we know our cup is close to being full and you know whatever with the next drop is going to go over. And that idea of thinking like, why am I like this right now what's happened so far in the day? And sometimes it's just like, it seems like it's 9:00 in the morning and I'm already on edge., you know, but, but or to think about maybe what do I need like you're saying and maybe it's that I haven't didn't eat well last night and I'm I'm really hungry or... Or... but sometimes it feels like I think it it can feel like there's nothing you can do about it at times. Like I, I just, I know I'm going to explode at some point today because my cup's full and that's that, but this sounds like it's a it's a way of reflecting to try to lower those levels, fix the the things that are off and Start off fresh.
00:21:58 Caitlin
Yeah. And another way to think of it beyond the cup is I like to tell kids about a volcano. So you kind of fill the volcano with all the sensory input or things that have bothered you throughout the day, like a sibling was kind of picking on you and then you had to eat sausage instead of bacon. And that's not your favorite. And like slowly, this volcano is getting closer and closer to the top and then the top thing that happens is like a bird was tweeting outside in a way that kind of bothered you. And that alone is not what set you off it's that build up and then all of a sudden, it all just overflows and explodes. And just having that awareness, I think especially as a parent to be like, OK, my kid is not losing his or her mind because I asked him to read a chapter of this book. It's because throughout the day or the week, this volcano was just building and we never did anything to offset that volcano. So I think a great reset in general is often going outside, right, like your eyes are visually, you're seeing something different than a screen or words on a piece of paper. The sounds are more natural as opposed to like the hum of an air conditioner perhaps... And if you're outside, you're most likely moving your body in a way that's more calming. Maybe you're sitting on a hammock, maybe you're just walking with that Pope input, and so kind of recognizing and helping kids recognize, like, before we sit down and do this assignment. I think if you went outside and shot a few hoops in the basketball hoop, that maybe your body would like lessen that volcano a little bit instead of just keep overloading it and it's different for every single kid, every single body stage of life. So it really is getting to know yourself, your kids, and figuring out what's the best equation.
00:23:47 Bonnie
Do you have any suggestions for how parents might be able to kind of communicate their own like as they are noticing? I'm feeling this way. I'm going to do this or that. This helps me or whatever are there. Are there phrases or ways that you like to encourage parents to kind of communicate that about themselves to their kids, both to kind of let kids know, hey, you know... parents are human too. We've, you know, we all have these needs. And also as a way of modeling to them... you know, so they can do that too.
00:24:14 Caitlin
Eventually, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have to kind of like what you're already saying. I'll say to my kids, my brain can't handle any more noises right now. I need to turn down the music or I need you to stop talking before I can think about. This like my and I say a lot of it in the terms of like my body feels wiggly right now or whatever it might be, and instead of saying like I need this or you're not doing that right? It's not, you know, blame it on your body. Your body is part of you. But it's kind of like, ohh. It's like when you're teaching a kid to potty train, your body looks wiggly right now. You might need to go to the bathroom instead of ust you need to go to the bathroom ... and I give a buffer in there. But there's also some really great tools out there. We often use something called zones of regulation that shows people color. So there's when you're in the Green Zone, that means that you're ready to go. You're ready to learn, you're in, you know, a good state. And then there's the yellow zone, which isn't necessarily bad, but it's not your top zone for learning. So yellow could be you're anxious. You're worried. You're excited. It's not necessarily good or bad emotions, but it's just that there's something else kind of bubbling. But then if you step up to the red zone, that's the next step up. You went from worried to just, like, can't focus on anything beside yourself or you went from a little annoyed at what was going on to losing your temper and super angry, or you went from excited about something, to bouncing off the walls and cannot contain yourself and then when on the other end, if you go back to green and down into there's a fourth zone, the Blue Zone. That's kind of the I'm tired. Sad, just kind of dragging zone and again there's nothing wrong with those feelings. But what can we do to move you from blue into green or yellow into green and so using colors like that can kind of help kids visualize it as a spectrum instead of just.... You seem anxious. There's a yellow. There's a color associated to it. Let's move you into green. Let's figure out why you feel that way.
00:26:23 Bonnie
I like that... and then as family gets more accustomed to using that, then you can probably have a shorthand.
00:26:29 Caitlin
Yes, like Green Zone or you're too yellow or whatever it is, and it works well with some kids and not as great with others. But you know your kids and you figure out which terminology is easiest for them to grasp.
00:26:44 Bonnie
All the way up to teenager, hopefully.
00:26:47 Caitlin
Absolutely, yeah. No teenagers need this just as much. And I think even more so in some settings because when you look at regulation, your body hits dysregulated states at any growth spurt, whether it's a physical growth spurt, you're growing 3 inches in one summer or the hormone influx that comes in the teenage years. There's a lot going on in the body that causes you to feel dysregulated. That is totally normal, but you're all of a sudden dealing with things that you hadn't had to deal with before, so you need to find new sensory input or just new ways to talk about things to get back to that regulated zone and just it helps again from that parent perspective like ohh OK. It's kind of like when you see your kids go through transition and they regress or .. you thought you were over some really frustrating behavior and then something else gets thrown at you and like, why are we back at this? Well, that's their bodies, natural way of regulating whether or not it's the appropriate way to regulate, and they're just grasping for anything, so trying to navigate what's a new regulatory strategy at this point in life.
00:27:54 Bonnie
I think having that sort of reframe helps tremendously, like whatever story we might be telling ourselves to have this also be like OK, but it could be, you know, let's look at it this way. That's I think that's a huge help.
00:28:07 Caitlin
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I mean, and sometimes you forget about it in the moment. Right. And then like later on, as you're going to bed, you're like, oh, OK, we were all dysregulated there. But exactly just having that frame it doesn't fix the problem, but it does reset, so you can approach it with a new strategy.
00:28:25 Bonnie
Yeah.
00:28:26 Steven
We we've had another guest on the the Kolbecast here, Johanna Seagren, who has an Interior Kingdom, is. Am I right with that name where? It's helping. It's a kind of a program for emotional regulation in children and with the faith. And this is this is really tying in with that to me isn't like knowing the time where.
00:28:35 Bonnie
Yeah.
00:28:45 Steven
You know, everything's full. The the mind is turned down. You, you just need a little bit of space. But this is looking at tools to examine. Can we reverse course here before before we get to that point before things get out of control? You know, I like that.
00:29:03 Caitlin
Yeah, and pairing the sensory strategies with that right, because if you have your cup totally full, your volcano has erupted. Everything is dysregulated. That's not the time to have the conversation about what's wrong. That's the time to try. OK, what calming sensory can I do? Is it deep breaths? Is it walking outside, sucking on something like sour, can kind of regulate your mind a little bit more chewing, something really tough and chewy like a Starburst or jerky or piece of gum versus having something crunchy. There's different taste and textural things that can help center you. And then after that, when we're more regulated from the sensory system, then you can talk about those things. But it's, I mean, you can't fight fire with fire when there's a lot of dysregulation in the room.
00:29:57 Steven
Since you have so much experience with this, do you just kind of notice things and people and people like, oh, I can tell they're getting nervous because they go over and they pick up something to start chewing out or that's when they do this. Does that kind of open your eyes to that sort of behavior as well.
00:30:13 Caitlin
Yeah, I yes, I I know especially I'm not like picking apart adults as much, although I can be like, oh, I see why that happened, but especially kids. If I'm at the playground or some event with my children and I see a kid starting to spin. And I'm like, well, I think it's a little noisy and chaotic, and that spinning is helping regulate and kind of just pointing that out to friends and family like, Yeah, that kid is hanging and climbing up off of you because they need that awareness of where their body is to feel safe in this setting with extra people, right. And I definitely do notice it, but try not to verbalize too frequently.
00:30:52 Bonnie
I would think it would be very, I mean that would be very interesting, the insights you would have just reading the room...
00:30:59 Steven
What you've said here and inthe other podcast that I was listening to that you were on, it was immediately like, yes, this is this is all true because I was thinking back to my my days in public school and I'm very introverted and get anxious in social situations oftentimes... Not when I'm in there but before them. But like every recess would be like I need to go out and swing or spin. That's what I want to do the entire times where it get away from. I'm not going to really even talk to anybody. I'm just going to. I mean, there might be a group of people who are likewise swinging with me, but that's accidental. I just needed the needed the activity and needed to get away from all of the people for a bit.
00:31:39 Caitlin
Yeah. Well, and I think we all are. And kids especially are really good at seeking out that input that we need. It's just that sometimes it's perceived as not the right way to do it right, like someone who's fidgeting with something. It's not necessarily that they're not paying attention. It's because their hands need to know where they are in space for their brain to focus on what's being said. Right. And so finding sometimes just allowing kids to do what they need is really helpful, but then also helping them navigate. OK, you you were spinning, but now you you like, hit that point of how much spinning you need. So now let's take a step back and navigating that, I got enough of what I needed and not too much or too little or finding it the inappropriate in the appropriate way. You can fidget with an actual fidget toy, but you shouldn't fidget with your siblings shirt next to you right? Like let's decide which way is better.
00:32:34 Bonnie
This is all great. Do you have any other ways that homeschooling families can include OT concepts in their toolbox, so to speak?
00:32:43 Caitlin
So many things! I I mean from just like a I think moving the body and having the OT look a lot about at body position. So being open to different type of seating. So maybe one of those big balls to sit on. You can put a resistant band on the legs of the chair to let a kid kick their legs against the the resistant band for input. Standing, laying on your stomach when you're listening to something, or even writing in addition to all the sensory I've said, OT's look a lot at body mechanics and fine motor skills. So is the core strength there. Is there upper extremity strength to support writing and doing fine motor things like cutting or drying and good handwriting? And and so in general, I just tell families, like, let kids climb and hang from monkey bars because it's really strengthening their hands and giving them input they need to succeed. Let them crawl around and do those weird like animal movements because a lot of those are helping that, that bilateral coordination. The crossing of the brain and all of that relates to reading and math in just crazy ways that we're not aware. And then you know it the really cool thing I think about being at home and not in a brick-and-mortar school is a lot of different tastes and textures that you can eat in foods can help you with alerting or calming the body and so be open to those different types of snacks or something. Crunchy and sour can kind of get you alert and ready to focus in on something and then like having a straw to do drink drinks through... The sucking motion is really calming. It's kind of like how a baby is, you know, sucking on a pacifier or bottle. It continues into adult age, so using those little tips and techniques and then thinking about the environment and what you're learning. And I say this in schools and homes alike. But if visual stimuli is too much for kids, then you really gotta find a room with not so much to look at, or maybe a room with a window where they can look out and use different eye muscles every once in a while. And how is the lighting in the room and shifting those environmental factors to just help with that sensory regulation? Just take a minute to look at your setting that you're learning in and what's working and what's not.
00:35:17 Bonnie
That's great. The food piece that's so interesting to me, that's a new new. And I I hadn't really drawn the connection between some of the the crunchier, stickier, like chewier, all that how that could be helpful. That's really interesting. Yeah, all all of it's great. Yeah.
00:35:31 Caitlin
Yeah, and it's, it's different from kid to kid, but yeah, I mean, if you think about when you're eating like spicy kind of makes you sit up a little straighter. So having a maybe spicy snack before you start a really hard lesson could kind of alert the brain a little bit more chewing on minty gum can kind of help focus and center you in a little bit more. Sour is usually more calming and regulating, so that's even something that can be used like kids who experience motion sickness. I'll say try some sour lemonade out of a straw and can counteract that vestibular input. So there's a lot. They're kind of... I mean weird and strange connections that when you start looking into it, can help your brain focus on what you need it to.
00:36:12 Bonnie
That's great. I’m prone to motion sickness, I'm going try to lemonade. I love lemonade. Maybe that's why.
00:36:18 Caitlin
Yeah, have some sour, some sour gummy snacks or something in the car. See if it works.
00:36:23 Bonnie
OK.
00:36:25 Steven
Is there a short explanation? Do we know why that happens? Like why sour?
00:36:29 Caitlin
I mean, there's. Yeah, there's just certain flavors and elements that can alert versus organize, and I don't. I'm sure there is an exact explanation and I don't have it. I do know in terms of the texture of the food, something that's really chewy. Your muscles are working harder and it's giving more proprioceptive input, sucking also kind of makes your muscles all, you know, contract and work harder and having that input of where you are in space counteracts if you're spinning and kind of dizzy from spinning or just dysregulation in general. So from a texture standpoint, I know it, the taste throws me off a little bit.
00:37:12 Bonnie
It's all so interesting.
00:37:14 Steven
Well, yeah, it's interesting. Just as you're saying all those things, I I like, I like to take long road trips, but once I get in the car and I start to get a little dazed, I I don't want to chew on something or a drink with a straw or I also have always had, like, blood sugar problems. So, like, so keeping my blood sugar up while I'm driving seems to be effective, but all these little things like OK, yes, you've just clicked off all of the little boxes that I'm probably starting to go a little crazy from just being stuck there with, you know, the the road going by, but makes sense.
00:37:50 Caitlin
Yeah, yeah, it dysregulates you, but you found ways to really regulate, so without knowing the terminology you figured it out.
00:37:57 Steven
Yeah.
00:37:59 Bonnie
It's all so fascinating. So if we have any aspiring OTs in our listenership, or if people listening who think oh I I know someone who might be interested in this or future OTs, what suggestions would you have for them?
00:38:11 Caitlin
Yeah, I think just talking to any type of OT out there. So reaching out to local occupational therapy clinics or reaching out to any local universities that have an occupational therapy program, OT is you can find them in schools and hospitals in rehab centers. I mean, there's a number of places and just if you're interested, reaching out and saying hey can y ou just tell me about your job because all the stuff I've talked about is much more prevalent in a pediatric kind of outpatient setting. But like, I've also worked with older adults in kind of a transitional care setting, and they're doing completely different stuff there with OT. So reaching out to different areas and asking do you have no chance to ask? Can I ask a few questions? Is a great way to. That's how I learned. I talked to an OT in a hospital and OT in a school and realize oh, I really like this and then pursued the OT degree after that.
00:39:07 Steven
I had heard about occupational therapy before preparing for this, but it was like something off there that I never really. But then I was, you know, listening to what your explanations of it and I was thinking that sounds great. I would love to do that or the parts of it, but the education has to be really interesting as far as the breadth of what you'd have to kind of cover is, is, is that, I mean do you do you end up finding that people have to specialize more or is it just you just have a whole big broad everything?
00:39:38 Caitlin
It's both and so like I said, I did psychology as my undergrad. I also, before applying to grad school for occupational therapy, had to take a few more science classes. So anatomy kinesiology. It's more of like the body mechanics side and then in occupational therapy school itself, we had different semesters where we learned mental health or Pediatrics is its own. There's kind of a neuroscience. There's another kinesiology section. So you learn body mechanics, mental health, how the brain works, but then overall, through all these classes, I think the largest thing that OTs learn is problem solving. So how you see something that's not achieving what they want to achieve and how can I break that down? Is this because of something that's going on in the brain? Is it because muscular the hand is not working right, and then you gotta pick from which of your classes and courses to kind of decipher, this is kind of the ultimate reason and thing we need to work on and and then from that once you graduate with your OT degree, you can get a job in many fields, but there are certain settings that require a further like niche education. So occupational therapists are often also hand therapists... That you need to do additional training to focus specifically on the hand. And then as I focus more in on pediatrics, I would take continuing education courses to teach more of this sensory and regulation that I'm speaking to. Likewise, if you're going on to work in a hospital setting, you might learn more about splinting and and if you're working in there even in the NICUs and ICU, surgically, things like that. You're learning more of that medically complex area. So it's a lot of learning on the job too.
00:41:34 Steven
Have you had many or any instances where you're just stumped.?If you're just trying everything and it it doesn't seem to be.
00:41:41 Caitlin
Oh. Yeah I mean, there's always this something, but I think that's the benefit of learning how to problem solve, right? Like you got to break it down. And this is true in medical and educational settings alike. There's the top down approach versus bottom up. So top down you have the problem. Let's figure out what we can do to make that problem easier and then bottom up is we have the problem but like what's the root of that problem and you gotta think real deep and in and so you shift which problem-solving mechanism you're doing and you want to follow the scientific research of this has worked, and it's definitely going to work. But in the peed setting especially, there were so many times that, you know, the proven research did not apply to the case at hand and being really flexible to be like, well, that's not going to work. So let's try seven other things until we find what does work.
00:42:34 Steven
My wife, who works in curriculum for Kolbe Academy, loves problem solving for learning disabilities and things, so she doesn't have an education in that. But she just researches and researches what you're what you're explaining, reminds me of her and she's like, OK, I thought it might be this. It's not this. So now we're going to go and we're going to try this and OK, that didn't exactly work. So it's just being persistent, I guess, and constantly looking for solutions.
00:43:00 Caitlin
Absolutely. And also I think knowing when to refer out right, because I I think like you're saying to learning disabilities that happens a lot with other anxiety or ADHD or sensory or whatever. And knowing when to say, OK, I addressed the sensory issue, but now there's something more along the lines of the learning disability that I don't know. So I'm going to refer to your wife because I think I fixed and like address everything I could from my skill set right? And now I'm going to refer out to or I'm gonna refer to a mental health therapist or someone because I help to ground them as much as I could, but now someone else needs to take them the next step and that's why you often see OT's working in coordination with mental health therapist or physical therapist or speech language pathologist, because we're all trying to do the same thing. We just don't necessarily have the exact skill set. At the same time.
00:43:51 Bonnie
Quite the collaboration! Yep. So do you have any suggestions for families who are looking for local OT support?
00:44:01 Caitlin
Yeah. So I personally and I tell my friends and family this too, I think every single individual in this world could benefit from OT at some point, whether it's because of an obvious I had surgery and need to get back to what I was doing, or I've just always had this kind of like audio sensitivity, that kind of drives me crazy. It's a number of reasons and so I think especially when you're sitting with your family and you're thinking like we always come up against this same barrier or this one thing always seems really difficult. Like if it feels more difficult than it should be, then I highly suggest seeking out OT if any of what I've said kind of sounds maybe yes, we could hit on that because I think anyone could benefit when seeking out occupational therapy. I recommend just calling up a local outpatient pediatric clinic if it's for your child perhaps... sometimes you need a doctor like an MD order for it, because like a prescription kind of for OT, but I personally did this with my own son. I called up the pediatrician and said I think my son could benefit from OT for reasons XY and Z and and for him it was kind of just emotional regulation and attention. I said, could you please write an order and the pediatrician can write up an order and send it to whatever clinic you're pursuing, and then you can contact the clinic and say I'd love an eval on my child for these reasons. And if nothing else, they might do an evaluation where they look at kind of what you're reporting you're seeing at home and then how your child's interacting in the clinic and they might say, actually we don't think this is the right setting or we don't think you need it, but here's some tips you could try anyway, or they might say absolutely you could definitely benefit from this and start on kind of a weekly therapy or whatever amount they think would benefit. But just calling out and asking I think is the best way to get in there.
00:46:05 Bonnie
OK. Any red flags you want awareness of?
00:46:10 Caitlin
That's a great question. I think it varies because I don't. I don't like to be an alarmist and be like, well, your kids not holding their pencil correctly, they absolutely need their hand mechanics looked at, right? Yeah. I think it's more so. A lot of people have different quirks, like we're all made differently. And that's really cool. And sometimes we learn how to work through those quirks and don't need someone else saying here's some tools for you. And sometimes we have different areas of life where they're a cork and they just keep like snagging and they just keep showing up. And I think anytime I talk to a parent who they're like, this just seems more difficult than it should be or this.. . You keep thinking it's better and then it comes back up again. Whether it's attention to tasks or inability to complete daily activities or just general like it feels hard. That's when I say that's a red flag. Enough for me. Why don't we just see if it could be easier? And sometimes it's just getting extra tools for your toolbox. It's not a long term, whatever, and you don't need a set diagnosis or OTs don't diagnose, they just problem solve. So if that helps people feel less scared of it, like we're not looking to label anybody, we're just looking to say that seems tricky. Can we make it easier for you?
00:47:30 Bonnie
It seems so helpful just to kind of have. It's almost like a mirror. Like you notice things that other folks who are living in experiencing it. They don't... They might not realize that themselves. And you you can recognize it and be like, hey, I noticed this. And here's something you can do about that. I like that.
00:47:45 Caitlin
Yeah. And oftentimes, I mean, it happened with my own son. I knew that things felt difficult at home and like he was one of those kids where, like, everything just felt harder than it should be. And it took someone else saying, why don't you just get an OT eval, which you'd think that I would just automatically assume it. But no, even when you have the profession. So if you can jump to it. And so I did get that and my one of my coworkers actually emailed them and pointed out he just had some primitive reflexes that weren't fully integrated.... Some brain wires in his brain didn't fully like flatten out the way they should have as he grew through being a toddler in the preschooler age and it was obvious when she said it to me like, ohh, that makes sense. Why XY like it all aligns, but I didn't see it at first. So sometimes just taking a step back as a parent and saying, could you just look at this and tell me if it all lines up or am I missing something? Or am I crazy for thinking this?
00:48:45 Bonnie
OK. Well, andwe're so close to it too. Like we, I mean, we're right there in it all the time. It's hard to see sometimes. Yeah, that makes sense.
00:48:50 Caitlin
Yeah.
00:48:52 Steven
I both I'm. I'm hoping that this episode will be... I mean it's I think it's been kind of eye opening for me as a but I think about my, you know, the homeschooling experience and how like in our house we like my wife and I know that our tendencies generally. I mean we're somewhat self-aware there and then we can we we can apply some of those to our children and see like, OK, well look if for example, at one point children were acting, you know, they're out of control, they weren't regulated. And we started to realize, well, they always do that after they eat these things. And then it's like, OK, so we can we're. So we're both there to pay attention. And we both know well, you know, I have these food allergies. My wife has these allergies and this... I think to me, helps to kind of refocus and open your your eyes for what you can possibly see in your family. But I love the recommendation to... That maybe this is something you can't figure out, so go ask for help and this is the occupational therapist. Is the sort of person you can ask this sort of help from so.
00:49:53 Caitlin
Yeah, absolutely. And it could just help you not feel alone. And I think it's often reassuring, especially when I've talked to friends and then like my kid keeps doing this activity like, why do they always jump off the couch after dinner and I'm like, well, I think, you know, sitting in a chair for that long was dysregulating. So they're jumping off the couch. So it may not even be to say you need some extra tools to fix that, but to just reframe it... be like ohh their body is seeking this. And that's why.... You know, to just not feel alone in seeing behaviors that probably are occurring elsewhere and you're just not aware of it, yeah.
00:50:30 Bonnie
Is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you would like to and if not, or do you have any resources or recommendations for their information that you want to aim us at as when we're finished with our conversation?
00:50:43 Caitlin
Yeah, I have a few books that I love, so it's funny as I as I talked about this, I think on the podcasts that we previously mentioned how everyone has different input that they can tolerate more or less of. So audio is one of the things that I don't tolerate as well. And so when you think of like, who's your audio learner, your visual learner And the visual learner so....
One book... I have a pile, so one book is The Whole Brain Child by Daniel Siegel. And that one talks a lot about regulation from that concept of like, teaching the brain those connections and saying I see you're feeling this way. This is how we can address that. I think that's a great book for reference. And then in terms of all the sensory stuff, there's a book Raising a Sensory Smart Child by Lindsay Veal and Nancy Pesky and that talks about more of what I'm seeing of all these different sensory systems and how you can interact with each of them so especially if you just want concrete ideas. One, I'm seeing this. Which sensory system does it relate to and how can we readjust and reset is really good, and then another one I'm a big fan of is Balanced and Barefoot by Angela Anscombe and I think in general there's like a big push for getting outside and sometimes you just need another reason for why. And I think in general being outdoors is that great sensory reset we need and you see it even in just little babies when they're upset just trying to step outside often tends to calm them, so finding little tips and tricks like that has been helpful, at least in my household.
00:52:21 Bonnie
Super. OK. Well, we will include links to those books and our show notes along with the link to the podcast we keep referring to This Whole Life episode through which I... I discovered you, and there are a few relevant Kolbecast episodes that I will also include in our show notes. So have all of that in there. Any final thoughts you want to leave with us?
00:52:39 Caitlin
No, I just want to thank everyone for listening and hearing about OT. It's such a passion of mine to help people learn what OT is and how it could potentially be helpful in some area of your life. And so really just want to thank all your listeners for giving it a shot.
00:52:54 Steven
Thank you, Caitlin. This has been wonderful to hear about these things.
00:52:58 Bonnie
Agree.
00:52:59 Steven
Already thinking maybe I need some OT myself.
00:53:03 Caitlin
You do. I need it. You need it . Everyone should just go for a round!
00:53:06 Bonnie
Sounds good to me! OK, then it's really been a pleasure meeting you, and I'm really grateful that you came to visit with us today. I look forward to hopefully visiting with you further on some other occasion. And I really am glad you came to talk to us today on the Kolbecast, thank you!
00:53:21 Caitlin
Thank you.
00:53:25 Steven
Subscribe to the Kolbecast on your favorite podcast app so that you don't miss an episode. And let us know how we're doing by leaving a rating or review. And as always, feel free to e-mail us at podcast at Kolbe.org.
00:53:39 Bonnie
Mary, our mother, pray for us. St. Maximilian Kolbe, St. Ignatius of Loyola, Holy Saints and Angels pray for us. Ad majoram Dei gloriam!
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