00:00:07 Steven
Welcome to the Kolbecast episode 229. Thank you for joining us today. Bonnie, Jordan, and I get together for Part 3 in our Humanities series. Today's episode is primarily focused on the Iliad in our Greek literature course. We look at some key areas for discussion that a parent might have with their students and delve into the first six books of this magnificent work. We hope that you'll enjoy the show.
00:00:34 Bonnie
Hi there, I'm Bonnie... Kolbe homeschooling mom of four lads and lasses, liturgical musician, popcorn and podcast fanatic.
00:00:43 Steven
And this is Steven... homeschooling father of five and chief homeschooling officer for Kolbe Academy.
00:00:49 Jordan
And I'm Jordan. As a product of home schooling, I'm proud to teach Greek and Latin for Kolbe online and serve as the alumni and public relations director.
00:01:04 Bonnie
All right, this is episode 3 in a series we are doing on the humanities, focusing on the Greek year of high school studies here, according to the Kolbe curriculum... back here with Jordan and Steven. The first few episodes in this series are in episode #220 Decoding Mythology to Reveal Christianity and Episode 225 On the Same Greco-Roman Page. So today we're picking up where we left off there. Jordan, you're reading the Iliad with your daughter. Steven, you're reading it with multiple of your kids. So whereabouts are you in the story? And what are your thoughts so far?
00:01:38 Steven
Well, I think at least for today, my daughter is ahead of me now because she transferred over to the to the honors course so she could get some of some of the discussion with the with the online course. So she's further than me, but I think I have to book 8, but I think through book 6 is about a good spot for this podcast.
00:02:02 Jordan
Yeah, I got the memo and try to get it through book 6 as well. So that's why my daughter is ahead of me. Also, I I don't know where she's at exactly, but I see her bookmark is almost twice as much as where mine is in the same book.
00:02:17 Bonnie
Yeah, sharing... we were talking about that before we start recording and that brings up a memory. So if you long time, listeners will know that my sister Hope is a Kolbe alumna. We have had the great fortune of making use of a lot of Hope’s materials, the the books she used for her coursework, so we'll find fun little notes written in there. Same thing: she and our mom had... They each had their own set of books as they were working through the course material so that I think of them fondly when you talk about your ...your own set of Jordan with you guys have duplicates of most of the books too.
00:02:49 Jordan
Yeah. Yeah, that's... we... we got duplicates of everything except this one thinking that I had it, but I can't find it. So we're kind of sharing it, which makes the reading a little bit slower because it does take quite a bit of time for. So I we try to. She'll be reading something else while I'm reading her Iliad text, and then we'll switch and things, but.
00:03:10 Jordan
No, it's been good. It's it's also fun to kind of track what stands out to her little little notes there, a check mark or something that's been that's been kind of neat.
00:03:19 Bonnie
Yeah, you were mentioning something similar, Steven.
00:03:23 Steven
Yeah, there's ... my daughter has some strong opinions about different things, but she's also been part of the conversation of an Iliad multiple times throughout the years. As like as we would discuss it... my wife and I and and friends. And then as my daughter went through Thomas Aquinas College freshman year, they read that now my son’s doing that and... But so it's fun because we've had some, a lot of after dinner conversations just about specific points. And I don't always start out necessarily agreeing with her, but she brings... by the end, usually I think we're on the same page, so.
00:03:59 Jordan
I'm I'm wondering like for the listener’s sake and for all of our sakes, why? Why is the Iliad so important? I thought of that when we mentioned Hope again because it was like the idea where she's like, it's all this killing. Everything is like violence and killing. And why is this important? But what? What really is what is the Iliad? And why? Why do we even? Why is it so important?
00:04:22 Steven
Yeah, yeah, the the... for me, the whole the whole story about a war that starts up because Paris takes Helen and away from her, her husband, and but there had been this. You know, there’s an agreement that if if anything happened to Helen because everybody wanted, she was this beautiful woman everybody wanted to marry her, that they would come together and fight for this, this cause. So why, yeah? Why is that so important? But I I think the Iliadis great because I think it's. It's the story of martial virtue for the Greek people. So I think if you're, you know this.... What we're seeing is Homer laying this out to the Greeks as far as what I mean different. We're gonna see different characters and different flaws and things, but also what's the height of virtue for a Greek. And so I think it's valuable both ... To see what see what that is, and we'll have to can come to to that.
00:05:21 Steven
And who we think that is in the book, or whether there's a single instance, Achilles. But but then we'll we also it also is really... because it's, I think, a great opportunity for us to, to approach it from a different lens, because I think almost everybody who reads the Iliad the first time loves Hector, and there's a lot of reasons to love Hector. And we'll talk about this, I'm sure throughout. But I think one of the key reasons is he seems more sympathetic as a Christian, somebody from a Christian background where some of the actions of other people seem harsh or they seem like they're not forgiving or merciful and I think there's it's important to look at that and see now is... is... Homer are the Greeks saying that's a fault in the Greek people that are are don't show mercy or they're proud or they saying that's a virtue? And what we think is just a different... is different than what they thought because we we have Christianity and we have the incarnation. God became man and died for us so the changes what virtue is going to look like to a certain extent. So yeah, I think that from a a military standpoint and as far as being ordered, this is a a book about kind of the great man, the magnanimous man. We'll see whether ... I know a lot of our listeners who've read the Iliad might disagree with me on on these things, and that's OK, but I'll try to make make the case at least. And it's actually one of the great conversations that will always come out of the Iliad is who's the best man. But that's why I think it's. It's one of the, I mean certainly certainly is old. It's stood the test of time too and it gives us a view of Greek culture.
00:07:09 Jordan
Yeah.
00:07:10 Steven
But I think the virtue part is the and the different perspective are the two most important things.
00:07:16 Jordan
And and it really I it almost seems like you can't understand the rest of Greek literature without the background. Maybe because I mean if you just jump into something like the Oresteian Trilogy and and then you know, it's it's Agamemnon returning after the war. But it's written, you know, centuries later, but they just pick up, like, right there, assuming that the audience would know and even now to read those the later plays and things like that, it's almost like you have to have the Iliad and the Odyssey as the background. Yeah.
00:07:52 Steven
Yeah, I agree, it's ... It's kind of the foundational piece.
00:07:57 Jordan
And you mentioning that about you know we see things sort of through our Christian lens. So it's it's almost like do you think to approach this and get it accurately you have to try to remove those to so that you can be sympathetic to to the other characters.
00:08:17 Steven
Yeah, I think you should at least kind of. I mean at least you should treat it like viewing something where you shouldn't expect that people are acting the same way you would want them to act as a Christian, so... So what? What about? So rather to to judge their actions right up front? Like, why, why isn't he merciful or whatever to to say OK, Homer seems to be presenting this as... these great Greek heroes. What should we pull away from this or what is the good that they're pursuing? That's one of the things that I I often don't.... You know, going back, this is my third time reading the Iliad, which isn't a lot, but it's becomes very clear to me that this is this is about the Greeks. You know, this is about the greatness of the Greeks and and their virtue, which should be obvious. It's like the Greeks, it's the Greek look against the Trojans, these other other people, foreigners, even though there's a lot of similarities with within the book, but I think that's an that's an important context so as to see that, you know, even as we get into this will be another argument of mine. ahem. Hector versus Achilles, I guess, but you.
00:09:31 Jordan
Know. Yeah. And and you you were interested in in sort of like talking about the background, how it begins Sing, Goddess, and... And then, you know immediately in book one, we set up these different rivalries and things, and there's a whole context with Apollo's plague and all of that. What? How does that set the tone for? For, you know, approaching the rest of the text.
00:09:58 Steven
Yeah, like I mean, I tend to want to pay attention to the first words of a of a book, always. So when it says Sing, Goddess the anger of Peleus his son, Achilles. It's like, OK, stories about Achilles, you know, that's at least you'd hope that he's not misdirecting us or whatever. But you have this interesting kind of background setting up both slaves, you know. So so there's a plague, a plague that starts at the beginning of the book because they've taken the daughter of a priest of Apollo as a slave. Agamemnon has, and Apollo is upset about this, and so he brings a plague down and they basically at some point they they say, hey Agamemnon just give her back and and they he says no, not going to happen. And so then they get they get they bring in somebody who's going to give them an omen. What can we do to stop this plague? And it's you have to give her back and you have to give all this treasure to the priest of Apollo and so they're they're doing that. But then Agamemnon, who is the king of the, he's the ruler, he has, he has Zeus's rod that he holds the eminent place about amongst the ruling people or as the ruler of the Greeks. But he says, well, if if if you're going to take away... If I have to give up my slave... umm... I'm going... I want to Achilles’s slave that. ... And already we're seeing the some of the the different roles of women in in these things, right. And there's a conversation later that Hector has with his wife saying if the city falls and I'm killed, the Greeks are going to take you and you will be their slave, which is kind of like a being a wife, but you're a servant and she has no say over that. So that's that will come up at multiple times, but it becomes clear that Achilles loves Chryseis. The slave that he has taken and and Agamemnon is married. He has but says this this woman he's he's going to lose is better than superior to his wife, which maybe is part of the reason he gets killed by his wife when he returns home. But... But yeah, so, so then Achilles wants to fight right away. But but wisdom Athena whispers into his ear and says no, don't, don't fight now. And so he withdraws. So in doing that, then he, his mother is a is something of a goddess as well. And and she she goes to Zeus and asks for ... For him to bring Achilles honor and Achilles has his background that he knows if he fights, he's going to die, but die gloriously. If he were to withdraw, he would live a long life.... Life. And so he has this choice ahead of him, and Agamemnon has just basically taken away his glory... his honor, he's said you're less than me. I can take any of your stuff, you know? So there's a. ... Immediately this tension then, like OK, if you're not going to have honor for me and my how great of a warrior he is. And it says in multiple spots he's the greatest of the Greeks. Then I'm not going to fight until. Kind of. Until basically the the war is at the ships. So I'm I'm going to withhold by fighting for this so...
00:13:23 Jordan
It it's really amazing how so many things are set up and and like they they return later in the book and I've I've noticed that in other Greek writers, ancient writers where they're able to suspend something, they can kind of introduce it and then suspend it or or almost foreshadow it in a really, really amazing way. I mean there's times where we're reading Herodotus or something and it's like.... Ohh wait, all these stories inside of stories and I I would imagine it. I mean that's that's built into the Greek language actually like even one sentence the way that's why Greek is such a accurate and really profound language. When you study it because it can do that it can like preview something, delay it and then boom, hit it right at the end and you're like, ohh that's what that was at the very beginning and so I think probably with the Iliad at least, my experience in going through it this time has been that you, you need to keep going like it's you you have to, you have to keep reading because some things will make sense as you as you go further along.
00:14:33 Steven
It is really interesting and especially like how in the book itself it doesn't give you everything. It's like you just boom, you're in... you're in the nine years into the war, there's all this stuff that's going on.
00:14:41 Jordan
Yeah.
00:14:43 Steven
And but it seems to, you know, it gets fleshed out. But and I assume that as a Greek we would have had stories of some of these people. So when they talk about Odysseus or Achilles or you know... that we we like.... Ohh, we kind of know this, but now we're going to see their great deeds within this as well.
00:15:05 Jordan
Well, and the other thing we mentioned it in the last episode like there's all these different names for people and and then there there are other confusing thing can be the role of the gods. How they say they're human. They seem to be human, but yet they're not human. And all of that like how should people take? How should they approach this idea of the Greek gods.
00:15:28 Steven
I once was told by an instructor to really pay... Somebody was complaining about Zeus and he was like, well, but what does Zeus actually do that you disagree with here? I mean, he's kind of comical, a little. It's almost comical at times and that's interesting. But I think paying attention to the what the role of the God... For God was for them. So like when Athena whispers into somebody's ear, it's... you know, you could take it as wisdom is they're hearing the voice of wisdom or when when they talk about Aries doing anything. And most people don't like Aries or Aries is just war. So everything he does is going to be to stir up war you know which we don't always like very much or Aphrodite.... you with the love, you know, you see that most of the time, except for one battle scene where she gets stabbed by a Greek. She's not really in the battle. That's not her thing. It's it's all about.
00:16:27 Steven
It's all about love, so I think you can both kind of take this struggle a little bit and it's interesting to see what's going on with them, but also kind of keep in mind that this is ... Is also sometimes like a I think a a deification or personification of a ...of a thought force.
00:16:48 Jordan
Force or something? Yeah, it does seem like that it's a personification of some element that's out there. And you know the.... They'll say Rumor rushed through and it and it's capitalized and even in our English texts, like rumor is a a person or something. It's a proper noun. Yeah. I I've heard it. That it's confusing to students at the beginning. Why are the the gods like this? So I I think it's interesting your your instructor.... That what does he actually do that you don't, that you don't like him? Yeah.
00:17:23 Steven
And again, it's just yeah, because I know there's multiple things and Zeus seems to be like playing gods off each other and do it. But but I've been trying to pay a little bit more attention to Zeus as we're going through and seeing what is he actually. Is he doing? Is he just being capricious or is he being shown as kind of the... more of a Godlike figure. More of somebody who's got a bigger plan and isn't necessarily so pettily or involved in a petty way like we see some of the other gods and goddesses. But I'm not. I'm not sure I have a complete conclusion on that one yet.
00:18:01 Bonnie
As you guys have been talking, I was thinking more about your question about kind of laying aside our kind of Christian worldview to kind of be able to relate more to the people of the time period before that entered the scene to just have a better grasp of that. And I was thinking that it when we come at it with our understanding of that hopefully our.... Our understanding of God it is just so jarring to see gods behaving as they do, but how do they that is so counter to what we think of in in any quality of God as we know him?
00:18:35 Jordan
Yeah. And the early fathers used that a lot of the early apologists used it a lot. You know, the gods are bad, and our God and our God is good and calls us to be good. And there. It's been interesting in in teaching this course that that I am online for Seat of Wisdom College in Canada it's it's 2nd century Christianity and to see... you know, these are these are a lot of Greeks talking Greco-Romans, you know that are the early apologists that that draw up on this whole tradition. And they know these, they know these these myths and everything really well. And there's the writer Werner Jaeger, who wrote early Christianity in Greek Paideia... And in there I thought he had a really cool thing where he, he said he talks about, you know, he calls Greek literature, the he it's it. He calls it the Pagan Old Testament, which sounds a little confusing, but all it means is you know in the same way that in the New Testament we don't see God, God's violence in the Old Testament, you know, portrayed in the Old Testament it it it, it really isn't a thing for us if we we can understand it. There's been there's been a... A shift. And so there's a way to interpret it. And it's I think it's probably something similar when it comes to pagan or Greek culture? That there's a way to look at it as like a preparation? Almost. So this idea of virtue that Steven was talking about and how that gets kind of transcended or or something in the post Christ time.
00:20:17 Steven
I think that's right, because like Aristotle and his ethics has has a it has that virtue called magnanimity, which is hard for me to say. But greatness of soul and some translators will actually call it pride. So it's it's. It's got this like you are great and you know that you're great. You have the virtues. You're you're ruled by your mind. I mean, so your intellect guides and your habits as we and some of our other podcasts that we've done with Dr. Abela. We've talked a little bit about those virtues, but but he has the kind of the wholeness of the the great man, the the great souled man has the wholeness of virtue, but he's he's guided by reason and he knows he's great. And so there's no virtue for him to act like he's a lesser person. He's he's also not. I mean, he doesn't respect. He doesn't. He isn't moved by the the the OR the fame of lesser people yet respects those who are great and and are wise and he kind of appreciates the great. But there's no humility really there. I mean, there's no reason to be humble. I mean, if you're better than everybody else and you know that you're better than everybody else, why would you act like you're not better than everybody else? You know, it's and not and so yeah, very different again when from when we know somebody who's better than everybody else because he was God and man came and died and served and gave us an example. But without that, I'm not sure it makes as much sense and and you know, even though this is supposed to be, you know, a secondary thing for us as Catholics. The fact that we we understand that after death, whether we we're going to spend eternity with God or we're going to, we've developed the habits where we're we've we turn away from God in the end and and are punished in hell. I don't think that was what the way the Greeks saw that at all either. So whether you are whether you live a ... a great life or a not great life. You're ending up in Hades either way. So what I think and what I think we see with Achilles is.
00:22:29 Steven
He can live a comfortable long life, or he can be this glorious, magnanimous figure that is remembered for all ages in the songs of men, and I think that's the greatest thing that a Greek could hope for, basically.
00:22:48 Jordan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You you see that in all all the, all the literature, it's like it's it's built on maybe maybe he's like the founding figure of it or something or he at least embodies the idea of that. And I keep, you know, I keep thinking about the what's stood out a lot to me is, like, the idea of of the fates or fate and and how that is almost.... you know the gods can't even change it. If it's faded, it's it's faded to be that. And at the end of book 6, I think you might have referred to it where, where, where Hector's talking to his wife, you know? And he he ends up telling her she's crying because he's going back out to the battle. And and he says to her. I'll just read it. It's just a little thing. It's. I like to it. It says, UM, why does your heart sorrow so much for me? No man is going to hurl me to Hades unless it is fated. But as for fate, I think that no man yet has escaped it. Once it has taken its first form neither brave man, brave man nor coward. But it seems like also with the gods, I mean, when we were, we were reading Herodotus and there was a part where King Croesus felt tricked. King Croesus felt like he was tricked by an oracle because the oracle had said, you know, if you go he wanted to know if you should go to battle against the Persians and he's and he says if you go to battle against the Persians, a great man will will a great empire will fall.
00:24:22 Jordan
And it meant his own. But he didn't know that. And so he goes to battle. And and his empire ends up falling. And so when he's at, he's saying I gave you millions and millions worth of Amazon gift cards or whatever they were doing back then, but he he he gave them all. So he had given all his money to the temple in Delphi and and then he he felt betrayed and tricked. And he gets a response and the gods are saying like we we delayed it for you be happy tith what you got but but it had to fall on you because it had been faded, generations before and there was no changing it and I I guess it's the same sort of thing in the area, right? Where the if it's set in motion like that they that they can't really stop it or do you know of any instances where the the goddess or the gods can intervene and and change something like that.
00:25:16 Steven
It seems like at least it's one of the fun sort of fun things, and it's an interesting theme and and like you're saying in all of the Greek literature, the side that fate idea because there seem to be things where the gods can come in like the Aphrodite can take away Paris in book three from his combat with Melea. So he's not killed there, but there seem to be things that are part of their storytelling that are more concrete. They're they're immovable like that. Where, like we know. Well, at least. And Achilles seems to have that sort of notion, like my fate has two branches, but it's going to be this or that. And I can't change it and try to get both or anything. so this is a spoiler for future books, but it's it's actually really interesting to see in the end of the book that Achilles seems to desire something better than that and some of his actions will show that he he wants there to be... like he awards though the other competition just in in these games that they're doing and he awards both the winner and the loser, you know. So it's not just the winners, gets everything and the loser is in despair. And so he kind of acts again. Anyway, we'll get to that in a in a later book, but it's pretty interesting.
00:26:38 Jordan
We're in these early books. What? What else do you think is really important? What's jumped out to you in this these first six?
00:26:47 Steven
Yeah. So I I'm trying to think, I mean we we have a limited amount of time for our listeners here, If we if we go too long, they'll they'll be easier for them just to listen to the instead of listening to us talk about it, I think you, I'd just like to point out in book 2, they're listing all of the heroes in their ... you know.... ships and I think even though that's fun to hear about everybody kind of, it's also rather long and dull for many people. But I think there it's just gonna point out this is all the Greeks, this is this is a book of all of the Greek heroes against the Trojan. So.
00:27:22 Jordan
Ohh I see. Yeah, it's it's the exodus. Or not. No, it's the Leviticus of the uh pagan Old Testament. It actually matters if you press into it or Deuteronomy may be better. But but yeah, so you're you're saying that the point of that is to say it's it's it's all the different Greek tribes have to be named in their.... So the the like the Greek readers of this know that they're all included.
00:27:46 Steven
I think so. Yeah. I I haven't heard any. I haven't heard that specifically from anybody else, but it just seemed to me like that's what they were doing this this time through. But so this is, this is the book for all Greeks.
00:28:00 Jordan
Yeah, very interesting. I mean that that is, you know it's it's been fun and doing all these readings to really pay more attention to the maps. Also like that. That would be a tip I would give people is look at the map and and it really will help you out in making it vivid.
00:28:18 Steven
Yeah. And so I guess just for, so we don't spend the entire time on the Iliad because we have some other things to talk about here. You know, I think what I'm what I'm hoping for some of our listeners is just that they get like, if you haven't had a chance to read it, you can maybe listen to this and have a few nuggets to throw out to your children to ask them about so you know there's a couple of times in these early books. First in Book 3, where Menelaus and and Paris are going to fight each other, and whoever wins, they get Helen and and the war is over. And so in the middle of this battle, Menelaus is winning. And.... Aphrodite comes and saves her beloved Paris and snatches him away. And so then there's confusion, which is is there. But so a good conversation point here is, what do you think about Helen at this point? You know, because some people will say, well, oh, she's don't really like her. It seems like she kind of loves Paris and.... But it's this is another one of those points with the Greeks. I think that you could think you could at least reflect and say it's never brought up. Nobody ever goes to hell in and says so. Helen, what would you like to do? Would you like to stay here with Paris or would you like to go back to mandalas and end this long war? She's never consulted about it because I don't think that was a right that that we see with Hector's conversation with his wife. That's not an option that you have as a woman. So I think it's interesting to kind of to at least discuss some of that and say What are? How are women portrayed in this in in a time of war, at least in the Iliad, and is she? Is she a likable character or is she kind of deplorable? So a conversation point with you possibly.
00:30:07 Jordan
One thing that's that that is like maybe I find kind of inspirational, it's it's the challenge that... Homer is writing to Greeks never with the idea that we'd be sitting in our in our different houses all over the North American continent and reading this. So we're being let in on something else like it's almost it's a it's a portal into some world that wasn't maybe meant for us. I I think people would probably make the case. But it's the foundation of one of the foundations of Western civilization. So we've built on it, but at least, like with his idea, who was he writing to? He wasn't writing to us.
00:30:47 Bonnie
Yes, yes.
00:30:48 Steven
No, not at all.
00:30:51 Steven
I guess I won't have to summarize every every single chapter here. Kind of... There's the battle resumes. There's more fighting. We get to see kind of the glory of Diomedes and like the Trojans decide they're going to pray to Athena to try to stop this. But we we we, as the reader, know this is not going to happen. Athena is not going to have mercy on the Trojans. But but it does show one of the one of my favorite scenes with Hector that we've already talked about, where he he's back.... His wife is crying as you were mentioning and he's talking to her about going out and fighting and and as you read. But there's this touching scene where he he wants to hold his son, who's a who's an infant, and because he's in his battle garb and just came from the combat, he's he's fierce in appearance and his son starts to cry. And so he takes his helmet off and and then, you know, holds his son and so.
00:31:45 Steven
I mean I I do like Hector. I'm always talking about Achilles above Hector, but Hector has these moments where you see this is really shown as a he's being shown as a good, a great man here in this particular thing. Now why he defends his brother, who everybody despises and is going to cause their entire city to be destroyed is a different question. Shouldn't he? Shouldn't he have justice above his own family and his that loyalty? So I think that can be brought up. But right here we get just a a really beautiful scene with Hector.
00:32:18 Jordan
Yeah, for sure. It's it really tugs on the heartstrings, even of us all the way, you know, into the future this, that even then it was like the kid is scared. It's like, I mean my my beard is pretty short right now. But in the past I remember I shaved it as a surprise and walked out after having a... uh ... thick beard and my son was terrified of me. He he just got and he was running from me. He was just looking at me like. And it was funny. We had to convince him that that it was still me but I thought of that in this scene where he's afraid because he's got his helmet on and then right after he takes it off he he picks him up and kisses him and even says and so. Yeah. Good.
00:33:01 Steven
And his conversation with his wife there, too, about talking about how his the thing he hates is that he knows that if they fall, that she's going to spend her years working for some as a slave to some Greek person and yet so we've got both that acknowledgement of this is what happens. This is what's at. ... Like if we lose and yet they'll we'll be seeing some instances where people are kind of saying like Paris. Just give her up. We're we're done with this war. And both Hector and his father will say, you know, if he wants to, then he can. But if he chooses not to. And again, spoiler alert, he doesn't choose to give up Helen. Then they're going to keep fighting. So it's an interesting acknowledgment of that. Yet unwillingness to just say I'm not willing to let my family go through this because of because of your dishonorable deeds, basically.
00:33:59 Jordan
It really shows a lot about the all or nothing... that it really was all or nothing and it and that's borne out. Also when we're reading the histories because that that's what it is. I mean when the one I just mentioned with with Croesus’ Lydian empire or Sardis falling to the Persians, it was it was all the way over, you know. And and even they have Cyrus letting his men plunder the city as he's sitting there with the fallen king and the fallen king is like they're not plundering me, they're plundering you. It's all yours now you know, and it's completely over in that way that. Yeah, it's there. There's been some other connections too, like they're they're different.... Different tribes or whatever. Stealing each other's queens and justifying it in that. Well, it happened in the, you know, Homer writes about it. So it's OK for for us it's it's just a thing.
00:34:58 Steven
This, this this sort of thing always reminds me of of going back to the Old Testament, which I'm sure you're probably getting into a bit as as well, but and just how the world, the ancient world is so different than what we're used to in our comfortable America, where we have a great deal in most places, not every place, but of law... The order and justice, just so some of like the 10 Commandments don't make a ton of sense to us like, don't murder. Yeah, I haven't had to confess that one yet. But. Or but. But do you think or don't covet your neighbor's wife? But you think about these these ancient things. If you're further removed. Or we can think back to like colonial or our westward expansion times if your neighbor desires your wife. He can come and kill you and basically take your take your wife and there's nothing you can do about it. There's nobody to call for help and there's no. There's nobody around to to rectify that. So it's a much harsher reality than than what we're used to.
00:36:02 Jordan
Yeah, it sure is. I mean even that's that's, you know, when I'm talking about the the Girard book, the Scapegoat, you know or some of those other ones where it's it's even probably referring to more archaic communities than than what we're reading about. But you know, there's no justice wasn't the the guy that commits the crime fs necessarily punished because that starts a whole cycle of vengeance and things from like family, Family feud type stuff. Yeah. You know, they punish someone else. Blood has to be shed, but it's gonna be somebody that nobody cares about to try to unite us all together then and there, there's elements of that leftover, and you know when you're mentioning the Old Testament. It it made me think about I've really been noticing recently. I I never really liked apologetics, to be honest. I was never a fan of apologetics because it it to me, it's always seemed when I was a Protestant.
00:37:02 Jordan
And since becoming Catholic also, it always, it always feels like no, we're we're we're cool. You can you can be cool. You can be a Catholic and you can still be cool. You know we we belong in the modern world. It always seemed like that and reading a lot of the 2nd century texts and then thinking more about what the what the Scriptures are and this ancient literature, It it seems to me that apologetics might be like the first. It was a new ... it was a new thing, but it's the first time that...you know it's it's writing not to be, not to your own community. You know, it's always. You're always talking to your own community. And that's what the New Testament is. And some of the early... it's it's another way. I like it because it's another way to make some sort of distinction. So you have something like first or Pope Pope Clement the 1st writing at the end of the 1st century to the Corinthians, so Clement to the Corinthians, he's writing to his own community and then basically next in line comes this anonymous epistle that's written to Dignitas, and it's telling him why you should stop killing Christians and why our faith is reasonable and it's the first piece of apologetics.
00:38:23 Jordan
And all the other literature isn't that so if you're, if you're reading history, you know when we're reading Herodotus, which surprisingly my daughter absolutely loves reading Herodotus. And I'm like, really you do? And she's like, yeah, she wants to spend more and more hours reading it. But when you're reading that, you know, he's writing to his own people. And that's what we've always seen is like writing to your own people. So I think apologetics is is really kind of neat actually now to think. And if you think of it in those terms, and it really tells us something about the, the, the people who lived in this Greek world context, still at that time ... How how they thought after even more hundreds of years still reading Herodotus, and. And then Plutarch comes along and is writing, you know, contemporary with all of that. But I I I found that kind of kind of interesting recently. And, you know, speaking of my my daughter and liking Herodotus.... It was it was kind of amazing and it would have never happened had it not been for the preparation and reading The Scapegoat this summer. But we're reading this story, and some listeners will remember it's it involves Croesus, King Croesus of Lydia and he ... or, of Sardis, he he has so it tells that he has two sons, and one of them is physically handicapped, and at that point it says that he's deaf and he's dumb. But something's wrong with him. Then he's got another son who's super handsome and just the best guy in the kingdom, whatever. And so my daughter is getting suspicious as soon as she's like, why two of them. And the one has marks of the victim. Like everything she she picks up on now. And I'm just reading it like I gotta get through this because I go to the hockey practice like.... But she's, like, pausing. Why? Why the two sons and then she and the one has marks of a victim, somebody who's scapegoat, able. And it's it's these double s that you find in Gerard and all this. So then the king has a dream that the son, the handsome one, the only one he cares about. And he even says I only have one son and it's you. He. He doesn't like the other son, you know? So he has this dream that the the handsome son is going to get killed by a spear point. So he takes all these measures to make sure he doesn't and he gets him married right away so that he won't have to go to battle... he hides ... he locks away all the armor in the women's quarter, so he's never around... no accidents can happen and nothing can fall on him. So he's he's he's the ultimate helicopter parent of the of this handsome son. And then there's more to it which which would take too long to explain, but basically a stranger comes to town who who had accidentally killed. He was a foreigner and he had accidentally killed his own brother. So he's fleeing. He comes there, they purify him and everything. And he's just kind of hanging around and ... all of a sudden there's a wild boar that's ravaging the countryside, and they've got to go kill and he and and he won't let his son go do this. But he feels like a lesser man. You know, he's like, I can't go with all the men like I. And he talks his dad into letting him go because he says it's it's a wild boar. It doesn't have a spear. Like it's. I'm not fighting another man. It the prophecy isn't going to come true or whatever. And his dad believes him. And of course Let him go, and he sends that stranger kind of as his bodyguard to to look after him. So then they surround the wild boar, and at this point my daughter's like ohh the circle. Like the the circle is this symbol always in in these scapegoating incidents and things. And of course the foreigner throws a spear. And this is the boar and kills the son.
00:42:22 Jordan
You know, and so that got her. And then then the stranger ends up killing himself because he feels so guilty. So all these signs. But so there's enough there if you know something about Gerard, you're like, that sounds like something's gotta be. There's some mythology in there of a real event. And they're not telling it the way that that, you know, they're telling it in this really safe way that everybody's innocent and it was just all this stuff. And so I she begged me to let her write an essay about that which I was like you. You want to write an essay. OK, I could tell she was really excited about this aspect of it. And she was like, can I can I do it like in this Girard mimetic theory way, and she's still working on it, but she's unpacked so many little things within that story, you know, and she's saying like It... the king had like, a a handicapped son of some kind and wanted to get rid of him, or they sacrificed him is what it is, and they tell the story as though no, there was this handsome son that was accidentally killed by this. So when she gets it back through several steps to just the just like, what is the? What could possibly be the reality that generated this story? We get back to that and as we read further in Herodotus, there's other things that come up that are like, you know, 50 pages later, where it's referring back to something like that. And it it it all is sort of falling into place. And so for me, for to see her get excited in that way and feel like she's finding something new because we always assume that we there's nothing new to find that that has been totally worth all the hours of reading and everything, because it's it's gotten her excited for it.
00:44:09 Steven
That's really amazing.
00:44:10 Bonnie
Yeah, she’s hooked!
00:44:12 Steven
You you know something has worked when your your daughter is saying can I please write an essay?
00:44:16 Jordan
I know exactly. Yes, yes. Can can I can I write an essay on this? And it it's it's really good. I I want to just encourage her with it because it's it's like just just press into it. Whatever I and I think we we make that mistake sometimes as home school or the others will disagree with me but I I was talking to my Barber yesterday who's homeschooling? I would never.. . I'm like you're, you're home, you're homeschooling? That's funny. And he's like, why is that funny? But I'm... I mean, he's just somebody that I would never expect would home school, you know? And he was. He was. He was saying he has. But we're really falling... falling behind and this and that and his kids. Like in second grade or something. And I was like, don't worry about like that. Don't, don't don't worry about it. Like, yes there are there are things to strive for and try to hit these spots or whatever ... Or, but in the end it they're going to get there. Don't. Don't worry about that. I mean, I would, I would give him five years off if you want. And then and then come back to it if you need to. But you know, I'm I think I'm I'm pretty extreme that way. But I do. I do see in students and now also in my own daughter that it can be like 1 little thing like that that just makes it where you're hooked and and you want to dig deeper.
00:45:37 Steven
Yeah. Yeah, it's been a good experience. It feel like a success as a homeschooling parent. Going through this process with the you see the joy you see the one, the interest to the even the... you know, some of the spirited debates or or discussions that we have here is it's like. ... success, you know, good stuff too. So getting good content. But they're also engaging and really thinking about the they've become self learners, they're active, they're asking great questions about actions and virtue and and who's the better man and all of you know, it's just really fun.
00:46:16 Bonnie
That was an asparagus moment for her. Remember Hope’s term “asparagus moments” where she that there's something about that that hooked her in. Like, OK, yeah. So just drew her in and now she's in. So that was... That's the title of one of our very early episodes. So for folks who want to go back and listen to that with that, the significance of that term but yeah, that's great to hear and probably surprising to you, you wouldn't have anticipated that when you thought, OK, this week we're reading this in Herodotus and ... yeah.
00:46:44 Jordan
Right. Yeah, I I wouldn't have it all. And in fact, I probably would have read over it even always looking for those things because I was reading quickly and and and it jumped out to her. It really did. And then teaching her Greek at the same time has been a big help because You know the Greek, she can... She's probably better at the names. The how they're written in English than I am because she's anticipating what it what it probably is in Greek. So the whole thing has just been awesome. She still loves the the theology class the most, which is, say, sacred Scripture and...
00:47:20 Bonnie
Yeah.
00:47:21 Jordan
That that the the text I I really like it. The guy is very good. He wrote it for high schoolers in back in, in in like Cincinnati or Northern Kentucky in the early 1900s. But it's it's it's intended for high schoolers and I'm like man I could have really used this in graduate school when I was doing biblical studies. I mean, everything's right there. So it's a very good text that one I I kind of just have her read her on her own now because when I'm doing it with her, then I'm the one who's, like, delaying constantly. I'm like, ohh, no, let me show you this image online of this manuscript. It's so cool and those kind of things. So I think that's what after the first few weeks, we had to learn we couldn't just dwell on everything you it it's tempting to do so. It's tempting to dwell in that scene at the end, we were just talking about with Hector and his wife. And there's so many beautiful things that that I've underlined or or whatever. And I'm like, I really want to see this in Greek, cause even in the translation by Lattimore, it's just beautiful.
00:48:26 Steven
And I guess the and it's nice, especially with when it comes to literature and history is to like we've talked about in some of the earlier ones to to keep it together though is I mean if you stop and look at everything, you lose the the hole and it's really nice to see the to eat, to devour things in big enough chunks that you get what's actually being said rather than ... you know, just these little snapshots that aren't connected.
00:48:52 Jordan
Yeah, the the time comes for that eventually and I, but I I think in this this a Greek year for these kids that are 14, 15 years old and and they're just spending the year getting all this early on and then having discussions with siblings, having discussions with their parents and all of that to really make it a part of your you know of your your life, but your education, and then you build on it. I I have a a student at at the online that college class that I teach. And he did a he did a great books kind of program at high school program. So he's read a lot of this and now he he is hungry to to dig deep into things which he's right at the spot he's going to go to grad school next year. And he's he's found some of the stuff that he's finding. I'm like, man, that is a doctoral dissertation. You know, you you could earn it, but you'd have to. I mean, there'd be a ton of steps in there. But your topic that you've identified right here, that's what that is. So I see it now in a in a student that I, I've, you know, I normally am just teaching Greek and Latin even at the college level and in the early stages of Greek and Latin. But to do a really advanced level course like this, I'm seeing the results of a student similar to our students at that stage, and it's it's awesome. I think he's really ready.
00:50:17 Bonnie
I think that's good encouragement for like keep going. Like you were saying at the beginning of the conversation. Keep going and don't expect to catch every little thing this first pass and there. I mean, there's a lot of, you know, this is Steven’s third trip through the Iliad and he was picking up on things he hasn't before and and drawing connections and things like that. This is this is the introduction. It's not meant to be one and done... yeah.
00:50:40 Jordan
Right.
00:50:43 Steven
Seems as you're saying that it it just reminds me of so many of my experiences at TAC, which is a great books program, very broad, right, so tutors will have to kind of talk you down at times because it's like, yeah, this is just our first pass through. We're not, we're not or for at least for me that was my first pass through. Most of those works... so you can come back to those later and delve deeper. Or you can, like we've talked about, you could probably take one book of the Iliad and and spend this semester just studying that and but we're not there yet. This is their this is their first pass, yeah.
00:51:21 Jordan
Yeah. And that does come if you keep going and and you love it. There are opportunities to to do that then that's what doing graduate work is, is supposed to be especially. And I I do think like in my master's program it was it was kind of broad in some ways. But then there were opportunities to... Like I was able to take a course on called religion and violence, which is what introduced me to René Girardand and all of that, and then doctoral works, certainly. So even, you know, don't get too discouraged by all the stats. There's all the statistics about how many people make it to graduate programs versus how many finish and then also even with the you know to land a job to land a job in your field is very hard. But to take a note from Homer, if the fates want you to get the PhD, then you'll get it.
00:52:16 Bonnie
That's probably a good umm ... cadence.... stopping point, semi colon in our ongoing conversation.
00:52:24 Jordan
Be careful with the semi colon because in in Greek that's the sign for a question mark. So.
00:52:29 Bonnie
Ah, interesting. OK, all right. So at least a stopping point for now. So ... several related Kolbecast episodes to mention, a couple of which have come up already. The first two parts of our series here uh 220 and 225. Several others I will list in the show notes. So as always, our show notes have lots of links to things that are directly brought up and then that that relate as we are processing what we've talked about.
00:52:54 Bonnie
A couple other episodes to mention for now, #111 What Treasures Remain this conversation with some more Kolbe faculty and and Kolbe adjacent folks on some of the things we've been covering today, as well as 212 Portable Treasure ... that's with Abigail Palmer, who is the voice of the Kolbe Classics Conference recordings, and many Kolbe students and probably parents listen to as they're working through these Greek and Roman years. And Steven referred to episode 226 with Doctor Abela. And the Asparagus Moments reference I made was episode 15, so check the show notes for all of those.
00:53:27 Bonnie
All right. And I'll just throw in one last recommendation, speaking to the the theology course... in the time that I spent working through that with one of my kids, I found it helpful that the Catechism in a Year Podcast, Father Mike Schmitz's Catechism in a Year, I was able to download the reading plan for that and then match that to the course plan for theology.... See when when we're reading what from the Catechism and I'm able to listen to it and kind of hear his commentary on it, if I found that very helpful myself. So there's all that. Steven and Jordan, anything else you want to throw in before we wrap it up this time?
00:54:00 Jordan
I'll throw in a challenge if somebody's listening to this at the beginning of doing this, like if in years in the future, if you're hearing this and you're you're thinking about reading through it with your students, the challenge would be if you want to be, or at least sound like the the world's expert. Read the intro. And read the introduction to these cause very often it's like 30 to 60 pages long of an introduction, and if you read that really closely, it gives you a whole background. You could probably answer all the questions and things that they might have so.
00:54:35 Bonnie
OK, good.
00:54:38 Steven
Good reminder. I... my first pass through these at TAC. They say they always said don't read any of the introductions because they just wanted you to grab the text and without the the context, that's even the way they they make their first pass through the Bible too. But yeah, there's you're at least going to get people who've spent a lot of time studying these works and getting and getting some of their guidance there. So that's good.
00:55:00 Bonnie
All right. And we would love for listeners to join this conversation that we're having. If you are working on these courses or you're having these conversations with your students who are taking these courses online, please join our conversation. Let us know what y’all are talking about and what what lessons and points y’all are connecting and things like that. So comment on the social media posts for this episode or send us e-mail podcast at Kolbe.org. We'd love to... to hear all that.
00:55:23 Bonnie
OK guys, it's good seeing you today. We'll look forward to picking up this conversation again here pretty soon. Thanks so much.
00:55:29 Jordan
Thank you.
00:55:33 Steven
Subscribe to the Kolbecast on your favorite podcast app so that you don't miss an episode and let us know how we're doing by leaving a rating or review. And as always, feel free to e-mail us at podcast at Kolbe.org.
00:55:46 Bonnie
Mary, our mother, pray for us, St. Maximilian Kolbe, St. Ignatius of Loyola, Holy Saints and Angels pray for us. Ad majorem Dei gloriam!
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